Special special thanks to Alyx, who knows this shit far better than I do and first informed me about this procedure.
If you’re interested in the sort of research and work that has been done, look at the different links below. A lot of it relates to MRKH women, but it can be applied to trans women as well. If you’re unaware of what MRKH is, familiarize yourself since in a way, they share a plight we can relate to on some level. In the meantime, feel free to ask questions and/or discuss this matter below.
Source 1
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i’m not quite sure cheek cells are lubricating by themselves without saliva glands, akshully ….
What I suspect will happen after they perfect this technique is that they will become a single technique they will devise a way of using the penis head as a clit for sensitivity and then use the buccal cells for walls and lining of the vagina. gaining most of the benefits and none of the cons.
it’s a strange time to be pre-op…
LMAO that’s the most random use of *.* riding a pig I’ve ever seen.
Sufficiently lubed doesn’t necessarily mean it’ll lube, but since buccal tissue is naturally moist and suitable for damp and dark environments, it won’t have the dryness problem some trans women have said they have post-op to the point they need to manually lube up.
Pebbles, what you said is pretty much it. A full buccal graft means that the surgeon would have the rest of the penis to work with for creating the exterior of the neovagina. The scrotum would likely be used to create the labia. I suppose a hairy labia would be easier to deal with than a hairy vagina also, if that was a problem!
And how about the possibilities for transmen?
Maybe I’m misunderstanding, but is it possible to develop this technique to that your penis can still be inverted, but then lined with cheek cells for moistness?
But I guess that would lead to needing to keep dilating still, so that wouldn’t make sense. How much less sensitive would this treatment make you inside? That’s my only concern.
<—- Clearly interested, but too flabbergasted to speak about one thing at once
What little I know was more or less explained in the “As an aside” bit. As with MtF SRS, the technique would probably apply similarly. For phalloplasty, the urethral canal would be a buccal graft rather than a skin graft. As with current traditional SRS, skin grafts are not ideal for dark and damp places, so this graft would prove ideal. It should also mean less of a skin graft is needed (how much less, I don’t know).
To be honest, I don’t know very much about FtM SRS, and it’s hard to find information on advances when google search results just turn up a bunch of results on penis enlargements. From what I’ve heard, this technology is also being researched and/or put into practice so..!
I’m not sure I understand your question, Brooke. It sounds like what you’re describing is more or less the current experimental surgery being done, where they take a partial graft prior to surgery (without cultivating it for a full graft) and use it to keep the neovagina open so that it doesn’t collapse/seal up. The partial graft is placed at the opening, which in a way, makes sense, since natal women have Bartholin’s glands around the same area… although the vagina as a whole tends to lubricate really.
Now that I think about it though, I don’t think what you’re asking would work very well at all. You could probably get a mixed combination (lol) eventually, or a full traditional/buccal. I don’t know how much less sensitive the vagina would be, I would guess that the sensitivity would be similar to your inner cheeks. On the other hand, since the clitoris is a much better source for pleasure for the vagina endowed, and more material used for the clitoris to make it sensitive would probably be a plus, I’d think it would balance out!
informational comic ftw?
Well, she can’t say this anymore:
http://transgirldiaries.com/?p=998
You know what? This makes me happy for my MtF friends.
This was really interesting to read, I guess having more options for the surgery will be great.
I really hope this becomes more widespread soon. I was holding off on SRS for a little while, but if this is just around the corner, all the more reason to wait a little longer!
Really makes me wonder how far surgical techniques will have advanced to by the time I can actually afford surgery
While the experimental phase would be about two years, how soon this technique will be widespread is questionable. Here’s a tidbit of information though: I know two doctors at the Bangkok Gender Clinic are the ones doing the technique on local women. I have heard there’s another doctor in the US who is looking into it as well, and I believe he may have written some papers on either that or MRKH women – unfortunately, I don’t know that doctor’s name.
I don’t know many natal women who do SRS, but I was surprised to find out that is the case with one of the Thai doctors! Another thing to note is they are a bit secretive about this technique because it is essentially a new technique for trans people, and think about it. In any field really, if you have a new technology, would you want your competition to know about it, or would you rather be the first to be showing off this new amazing technique? That makes sense I hope. It means like, they’re basically guarding the secrets of the iPod, and don’t want other companies to be finding out how to replicate it… I mean they will be able to after it’s out and make their own versions and touches, but… umm yeah. Anyway!
I wonder that as well Brace Hare! I don’t plan on ever getting the surgery as it is anyway, but I’m hoping it’s really up there by the time I have any hopes of affording such a thing.
By the way, I don’t really have time to go through all the sources but I believe from my own research from this that I’ve encountered descriptions of the buccal cell graft being performed as a “secondary” procedure – that is, on patients who have already undergone a McIndoe vaginoplasty (which is similar to that done on MTFs in terms of tissue type) in order to improve elasticity, lubrication, and function.
So – and unfortunately it’d take me more time to source this – I don’t think post-ops are actually out of luck, as this has been performed as a secondary procedure (essentially they “seed” the existing tissue with buccal cells).
It is fairly disappointing for me that they haven’t done more development on this, as my SRS is scheduled for August and I don’t really want to delay it more after having spent seven years in a pre-op state and I doubt Brassard would be terribly receptive to this as an idea. It is fairly tempting though.
Kate, I don’t know all that much about how the procedure would be done on post-op trans women, but if you can find the time to source it, it’d be really helpful. But I do see what you’re saying (I have no idea how it would be done, but I am aware of the McIndoe vaginoplasty).
I am disappointed as well that this procedure isn’t developed more! Have you spoken to Brassard about this, by any chance? I’d love to know how he’d respond to the idea, and I know some others who are speaking to Marci Boners.
And I want to note, that I am by no means encouraging or discouraging people to wait on getting the newest procedure – I do think however, that if your need is not extremely pressing, or you can’t afford it as it is, this may be a pleasant benefit if you have to wait several years before you can afford it.
Second note! From what I’ve heard, the current experimental procedure tacks on an extra $3,300 onto the current going price of SRS at the BGC. And this is only for the partial!
After a quick skim, source 11 mentions that one of the patients was a secondary case of stenosis following a prior vaginoplasty, so that’s at least one case of it being done secondarily. I’m pretty sure I’ve seen it mentioned elsewhere, though, so if I run into it I’ll post it.
Evelyn, a further complication for me is that the surgery in my case is covered by Ontario, so while I could probably afford the extra $3,300, that’s entirely contingent on Brassard being able and willing to do it. I haven’t brought it up with him – in fact, I’ve had very limited contact with his clinic since scheduling the date once I mentioned it was going to be covered. Maybe it’s something I should mention, but I guess there’s partly a dynamic of not wanting to be seen as whiny for something I’m “getting for free” (even though it’s my health and health is a human right and all that and etc. etc. etc.) If there were more time, it’d also be easier to mention to him, but with the date coming up so quickly and being already scheduled and everything, it feels pretty late.
So I’ve basically got my fingers crossed on the secondary option, if I run into problems later. That would, unfortunately, require a whole new surgery and would probably not be paid for and might be problematic that way. So yeah, not sure on how these things change the calculus of my personal decisions, although the biologist part of me finds them very cool.
Thanks for pointing that out Kate.
Do you think simply mentioning you’ve heard of this new technique (perhaps providing sources) wouldn’t be a problem? Like, simply getting him aware of it. I do wonder how long it would take such a technique to catch on to be paid for by government funded healthcare (I’m assuming years).
Hopefully, the secondary option does catch on if someone isn’t fully satisfied with the current technique, but I do see how it would probably never really catch on as something paid for. Oh well… hopefully by then, we’ve got way better stuff available for everyone (preferably before we grow too old).
By the way, a quick scan of the SRS surgeon’s websites finds that, for example, McGinn contrasts the metaoidoplasty she does with the buccal cell technique for extending the urethra in metaoidoplasty by saying that the problem with the latter is the extra surgical site and problems relating to the extraction from the mouth.
I suspect that the objections to starting this procedure will come far more from the difficulty and unfamiliarity involved in performing operations to remove the cells from the mouth than anything to do with the vagina end of things – see, for example, http://eprints.ucl.ac.uk/7431/
It almost makes me wonder if for the next desperate generation of MTFs whether instead of hearing “I tried to remove my testicles with a rusty knife” we’ll hear “I tried to cut out part of my cheek and stitch it to my penis so the surgeon wouldn’t have to”. But that’s just crazy talk. Maybe in the World of Trans.
That’s hilarious, Kate. It would be condemned as being transphobic though in WoT! : P
Thanks for the link, I’ll add that. I would have to agree with you on that point, and I can’t remember if it was you who mentioned it once or somebody else.
Why don’t they just mix the two techniques? Like, could they do the penile inversion then graft the cheek cells to it? It seems like it’d have the sensation of the penile inversion with the self-lubing of the cheek graft. Would that even work?
In theory you could mix the two techniques in an initial srs, but in my limited practical medical knowledge and experience my guess is it would turn into a nightmare. To get the sensation you get from the penile inversion comes from the nerves still attached to what was formally the skin of the penis. When they invert, they actually try to cut the skin up as little as possible to allow the nerves to remain more or less intact. But to mix the two would require severing the skin at some point and thus the nerves to insert the new graft in between. I don’t think it is possible to do this and keep those nerves intact. *shrugs* But I ain’t no surgeon.
Is the cheek-tissue-created vaginas the reason reel-womyn have this (:I) facial expression?
Im just waiting for them to improve womb transplants
awesome comic EVE!!!
Yah its hard to find stuff for FtM’s but i do know that transbucket is a good place to find a surgern.
Vagina, that is squishy, to bad for the lack of sensitivity maybe they could splice the cells so we have gushing tingly neoginas!
HOLY HECK! this is epic! i didn’t even know this was possible! woot! i’m so gonna do this when i start to save up for SRS!
That’s pretty cool. *insert anti-Bush rhetoric about slowing down stem-cell progress here* I think a couple years ago, I was thinking they could do something like that with the nostril stem-cells(supposedly the only ones in an adult that work the same way as in infants, as opposed to the more restricted varieties elsewhere in the body, eg. bone marrow). Also for Alzheimer’s or other organ-growth things.
Being a cissy I’m probably missing the point. But what’s wrong with using your shlong?
lustylad411: The body considers it “incorrect”(due to it being turned inside-out and inserted into a cavity created by a doctor, essentially an intentional “wound”) and tries to “correct” by forcing it back out. Also, assuming some degree of hip surgery and/or if a womb can be created out of it, actual childbirth.
It’s been less than a year since this was posted, wonder if any progress was made? :O
Cue the “WHAT HAS SCIENCE DONE?”s.
This creativity is impressive but it still makes me wonder what’s so gosh darn hard about cloning the organs with stem cells. Makes me wanna invent it.
While it’s true there are concerns about complications arising from the donor site biopsy, there are ways to mitigate the risk. Currently, the amount of available tissue for grafting is dependent upon the area that is biopsied. Generally speaking, the amount of buccal tissue removed is somewhat limited due to concerns about donor site morbidity. However, removing a much smaller area of buccal tissue and culturing in vitro for several ways is one way to both increase the amount of donor tissue available for reconstruction and reduce the invasiveness of the oral biopsy.
Tyciol, in regards to cloning organs from stem cells, the main difficulties right now aren’t so much on the technical front, but more from a societal/cultural/ethical front. Working with human stem cells is one of the most tightly regulated areas in biological/medical research right now, mainly due to certain segments of the population who are quite influential and, unfortunately, opposed to the research. The procedures to outright clone organs from one’s stem cells haven’t been developed yet, but that’s mainly due to the aforementioned ethical concerns; if medical labs could get the go ahead and funding (because this type of research isn’t cheap) today, loads of them would jump on, and procedures would eventually see the light of day.
as an aside to what gabe said, and speaking as a recovering conservative, i think the biggest issue when it comes to stem cells and research therein is the point of origin…
(to my knowledge) the largest, most viable source of stems cells of sufficient quality are aborted fetuses, and this makes a lot of people uneasy to say the least…
fun fact (from a very bored googling a few years back) : the little bump of flesh that we all think is the clitoris? that’s actually only the (forgive the pun) tip of the iceberg. medically speaking, the clitoris actually extends almost all the way around the vulva (underneath the labia, obviously), and may even extend a good ways into the vaginal opening to include the Gräfenberg or “g” spot.
…sorry, you probably all already know this… : dramatically raises fist : darn you aspergers!!! (kidding, but seriously, sorry to preach to the choir… )
I think it would be really cool if they could create vaginal tissue from your own cells.
I mean, they can make sperm from women’s bone marrow.
How much harder would it be to grow a vulva/vagina/all those bits from a man’s stem cells?